🍾 Sparkling Starts:

We kicked off with Kacaba’s 2023 Effervescence sparkling (think “champagne-style,” done with the Charmat method). It’s dry, elegant, and as Andrea so perfectly put it, “a blanket of bubbles” on your palate. At $32 a bottle, it’s proof you don’t have to break the bank to pop something delightful.

🍑 Unexpected Whites:

Next up was the 2022 Jennifer’s Pinot Gris—a French-style, copper-hued white that turns expectations on their head. With notes of peach and apple and a warm, inviting vibe, it’s the “sit outside on a summer afternoon” wine you didn’t know you needed.

🍒 Red, Light & Lovely:

The surprise showstopper? Kacaba’s 2021 Cabernet Sauvignon. Don’t expect your usual big, bold Cab—this vintage is lighter, almost Pinot-like, with cherry and raspberry notes. Charles calls it “dangerously easy to drink.” Patio season, meet your match!

🍷 The Syrah Show:

No trip to Kacaba is complete without tasting their star: Syrah. The 2020 Proprietor’s Block Syrah is rich, layered, and bursting with black plum and dark cherry. And, for those who pine for the boldest reds, the 2020 Reserve Syrah brings deep color and intense aromas, perfect for cellaring (or just savoring now).

💡 Wine Wisdom to Go:

• Trust your own palate. There’s no right or wrong way to taste!
• Niagara is packed with boutique wineries to explore—medal-winning reds and sparkling bubbles included.
• Wine talk doesn’t have to be “snobby.” Ask what you like or don’t, and wineries (especially Kacaba!) will help steer you to your perfect pour.

👋 Plan Your Visit: Whether relaxing on the patio, trying a tasting flight, or browsing their club boxes, Kacaba is a must if you’re heading to Niagara. Andrea’s a long-time club member for good reason!

Andrea Morris [00:00:00]:
Hello, friends. I’m Andrea Morris, and welcome to Spill the Wine, a podcast that is about demystifying wine and making it fun because so many people think so many bad things about wine. Like, you have to be expensive. Wine has to be expensive in order to enjoy it. You have to know so much about wine in order to be fun, but that is not absolutely true. So we are here today at Kacaba, which I fully disclosure my listener friends. I am a wine club member here. This is one of my favorite wineries.

Andrea Morris [00:00:33]:
But I want you, my listening audience, to understand how great this winery is and how much fun their wines can be for you and for your, for your life. So we’re here with Charles.

Charles [00:00:43]:
Hello, Andrea. How are you today?

Andrea Morris [00:00:44]:
I’m great. How are you?

Charles [00:00:45]:
Very good. Thank you.

Andrea Morris [00:00:46]:
And Charles is, like, in in in charge of the wine club here and also a man who knows wine very well who has recommended several other wineries in the area for me to check out.

Charles [00:00:55]:
Well, thank you.

Andrea Morris [00:00:56]:
So I’m very, very happy to have this conversation with you today.

Charles [00:00:59]:
Happy to be here as well.

Andrea Morris [00:01:01]:
Thank you. So Charles, how long have you worked at Kacaba?

Charles [00:01:04]:
Just over a year now. Really? Mhmm.

Andrea Morris [00:01:06]:
I thought you were here for, like, 45 years or something.

Charles [00:01:08]:
Oh, no. No. I have been enjoying Kacaba wines for 20 years. I’ve been a member for a few, but I’ve only been here for about a year now. Really?

Andrea Morris [00:01:17]:
Mhmm. And so tell me how Kacaba got started. What’s the history of the winery?

Charles [00:01:21]:
Well, back in the, early nineties, this whole area was slated for residential subdivision, and it is prime bench, winelands. Michael cassava, a lawyer from Toronto, recognized the potential winery in the mid nineties, planted the first vines, in the late nineties, and we have been producing small batch boutique, premium wines since 1999.

Andrea Morris [00:01:50]:
That’s incredible. I never knew that that it was gonna be residential land.

Charles [00:01:54]:
Mhmm.

Andrea Morris [00:01:55]:
Which now, knowing the quality of the wines that are produced here, seems like that would have been a real shame.

Charles [00:02:00]:
It would have been a real shame for this to be, you know, paved over and cemented.

Andrea Morris [00:02:04]:
Did he have that idea when he bought it that this would be great for wine?

Charles [00:02:07]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Now what is the most popular wine that cassava has? We really specialize in big bold reds. The most popular would have to be Syrah. We were the 1st major producer of Syrah in all of Canada. Every year, we produce Syrah from 3 different, blocks in our vineyard, the Silver Bridge, the Proprietors Block, and the Terrace Vineyard. Most of our Syrahs are multiple national and, provincial award winners.

Charles [00:02:38]:
We also, in the better years, produce a reserve quality Syrah, and our 2020 reserve won silver at the Decanter World Wine Awards.

Andrea Morris [00:02:48]:
Wow. Do does winning those medals translate into more sales for that wine?

Charles [00:02:53]:
I would say that it definitely brings a lot more attention to the wine. And, the ones that win awards are usually the most popular with the public. Yes.

Andrea Morris [00:03:03]:
So that that medal really makes a difference.

Charles [00:03:06]:
Some people

Andrea Morris [00:03:06]:
are Or piques an interest?

Charles [00:03:07]:
Some people are hunting for the medals, but the reality is the wines that are winning the medals are, the ones that are really appealing to a a broader general palate. So people, like them, and they are medal winners because of how good they are.

Andrea Morris [00:03:21]:
Interesting. Because I’m I wonder about that. So yay. So we’re gonna taste some wines here at Kacaba today.

Charles [00:03:28]:
Yes. We are.

Andrea Morris [00:03:28]:
Like, I haven’t before. But, you know, like, listener, you need to experience this as well. So what are we gonna start with today, Charles?

Charles [00:03:35]:
We’re gonna start off with our 2023 effervescence sparkling. And the effervescence sparkling, you know, we can’t use the word champagne, but it is a champagne style wine. It is done in the Charmat method, which is secondary fermentation in the specialized high pressure fermentation tanks. This Chardonnay yeah. Sorry. This, 2023 effervescence is predominantly Chardonnay with a pinot noir. It is 19 grams of sugar per liter, but it comes off as very dry and elegant.

Andrea Morris [00:04:05]:
And it’s got a really interesting for, it’s got it’s not a it’s not a rose champagne, but it’s got a slightly pink color to it. Yeah.

Charles [00:04:13]:
You can think of the classic champagne color, which is sort of like a goldish pink. And all the color in wine comes from the skin contact, the amount of time that the skin stay in contact with the juice. This one is very minimal. We remove the skins from the grapes as soon as they arrive at the crush pad. So there’s very little of the, pink color imparted from the Pinot Noir grape.

Andrea Morris [00:04:37]:
And is that a bad thing, though, if there’s too much color?

Charles [00:04:40]:
No. We also make a rose sparkling, which we would just, induce a little bit more of the color by leaving the skins on longer. And that will also leave a little bit more, tannins and antioxidants in the wine. It totally depends on the preferred style.

Andrea Morris [00:04:56]:
If you

Charles [00:04:56]:
like a rose, we make that as well.

Andrea Morris [00:04:58]:
Now it’s interesting because we’re talking about, like, the traditional method of champagne. Like, this isn’t a vat. But isn’t the the traditional method is in a bottle. Right?

Charles [00:05:07]:
The traditional method is secondary fermentation in the bottle. The charmat method, which is what we use to produce this, is secondary fermentation in a, high pressurized stainless steel vat.

Andrea Morris [00:05:19]:
Okay. And does that affect the bubbles one way or another?

Charles [00:05:23]:
Both produce the same level of small delicate bubbles. If you are drinking a sparkling wine that has larger bubbles, that is probably because they have injected the c 02 directly into the wine.

Andrea Morris [00:05:37]:
But listener, you should see that the bubbles are continuing to come up from the bottom of the glass in this lovely light pink that I really should be drinking. Enjoy. So now you can just have a moment while I have a sip. Mhmm. Oh, that is like heaven in a glass. I think you It’s got a slight little bit of sweetness on the back of my tongue, but not overwhelming, but it’s like it’s just got such a warm and inviting there’s also a real softness that comes in.

Charles [00:06:12]:
There is. Yes.

Andrea Morris [00:06:13]:
It’s like it’s like I can’t it’s like a blanket of bubbles. Mhmm. A blanket

Charles [00:06:18]:
of bubbles.

Andrea Morris [00:06:19]:
A blanket of bubbles.

Charles [00:06:20]:
Very good description.

Andrea Morris [00:06:21]:
Yeah. It’s, like, exactly what it feels like, a blanket of bubbles on my tongue, and I think that this is absolutely stunning.

Charles [00:06:27]:
I’m glad you enjoy it.

Andrea Morris [00:06:29]:
And what’s the price point on this?

Charles [00:06:30]:
That is $32 a bottle.

Andrea Morris [00:06:34]:
Affordable and delightful. Mhmm. Absolutely fantastic. Do you find that people tend to like the effervescence over the pink

Charles [00:06:43]:
or the rose? Or It really depends. It it depends on the occasion. Whenever it comes to, you know, what’s your favorite wine, I don’t think about which one is my favorite. I think about the occasion that I would drink them at. And for me, the rose, a little bit sweeter, makes the perfect wine for a birthday celebration.

Andrea Morris [00:07:03]:
Mhmm.

Charles [00:07:04]:
Whereas the effervescence, a little bit drier, a little bit more elegant is the perfect, wedding anniversary, New Year celebration.

Andrea Morris [00:07:12]:
I think it’s perfect for watching the Oscars.

Charles [00:07:14]:
Oh, for sure. For watching the Emmy. Winning the Oscars.

Andrea Morris [00:07:16]:
Winning oh, yes. Or winning a podcast award or something like that. Content listeners. It’s absolutely fantastic. I love this. I love this.

Charles [00:07:26]:
I’m glad you enjoyed that.

Andrea Morris [00:07:27]:
Thank you. What are we moving on to next?

Charles [00:07:30]:
Well, next, we’re gonna move on to some whites. Well, a white. And by white, you’ll notice as I am opening this bottle that is actually orange in color.

Andrea Morris [00:07:40]:
It is. Yes. It’s like a light orange.

Charles [00:07:42]:
A light orange. And what we’re opening is the 2022 Jennifer’s Pinot Gris. Now Pinot Gris and Pinot Grigio are the same grape, but pinot grigio is usually done in the Italian style and is almost always a white wine. Pinot gris done in the French style is often copper colored. And I mentioned earlier about the skin color coming from the, sorry, the wine color coming from the skin. With the pinot gris, it is a white wine grape that we leave the skins on for 10 days. So it extracts the color, the tannins, the antioxidants that you wouldn’t typically expect in a white wine.

Andrea Morris [00:08:20]:
So you talked about the Italian style and the French style. What’s the difference?

Charles [00:08:23]:
Well, the Italian style, predominantly, they remove the skins before any fermentation.

Andrea Morris [00:08:29]:
So then it’s super white?

Charles [00:08:30]:
Comes out super white.

Andrea Morris [00:08:31]:
Okay.

Charles [00:08:32]:
Whereas the French like to leave the skins on, and it comes out with a little bit of orange color to it.

Andrea Morris [00:08:37]:
So they’re just like rebels, those French. They come be. Yes. Yes. And what year is this?

Charles [00:08:44]:
This is the 2022. You’re gonna notice some, perhaps notes of peach and apple.

Andrea Morris [00:08:51]:
I was just gonna say that I just had a little sip. Very peachy.

Charles [00:08:54]:
Mhmm.

Andrea Morris [00:08:55]:
Very but it’s not like sometimes I’ll try a pinot green. To me, it’s a little bitter. Right. But this is very warm and very inviting. Again, that that, like, blanket on the back of your on the black on the back of your throat. Mhmm. But also that peachiness is just really it just makes me wanna it’s really super hot outside, listener. It just makes me wanna sit outside Right.

Andrea Morris [00:09:17]:
Which is, like, really interesting because I am avoiding the heat. This is absolutely spectacular. The color is beautiful. It’s like a really light peach and just really warm and, like, cool and inviting. Right.

Charles [00:09:32]:
Yeah. A little crisper and a little bit more, bite than you might expect from a typical white wine.

Andrea Morris [00:09:38]:
And sometimes a pinot gris, I think, can be, like, a little citrusy.

Charles [00:09:41]:
Mhmm.

Andrea Morris [00:09:42]:
But this is not citrusy at all. It’s very, like, it’s very peachy and very lovely. Absolutely. Very, very nice. Very different from any pinot gris I’ve ever had actually, which is nice. You don’t see, this is the thing, listener. Our wines are not always what you expect them to be. So lower your expectations or raise your expectations.

Andrea Morris [00:10:05]:
Raise them now because we’re gonna have some of those credible reds.

Charles [00:10:08]:
We’re moving on to some reds. And when it comes to expectations, my favorite red wine is the Cab Sauvignon. I like big, bold, a wine that really grabs you and stays with you. And a lot of the wine, style really depends not just on the variety, but on the season that it is harvested in and how that season, turns out. So 2020 was our best growing season ever. We had some big bold reds. 2021 was more of a recovery year. So you’re not gonna expect the same level of boldness and intensity from a 2021.

Charles [00:10:43]:
Now that’s not to say that the wine isn’t as good. It’s just different. And the 2021 Cab Sauvignon, I’m gonna pour it for you. You expect a big bold red out of the Cab Sauv. This one, as I’m pouring it, it almost looks like a pinot noir or a gamay noir. It’s very light. It’s not yeah. There’s very little skin contact on this one, but the flavors just pop.

Charles [00:11:06]:
With this one, I, I almost say it’s it’s dangerously easy to drink. It’s one of those wines that doesn’t have a lot of heft to it, but it has a lot of character. And, you know, I’ll let you try and comment on your own. But this one is just the great, summer porch, porch drinker. I can sit on the front porch and literally just finish as glass after glass.

Andrea Morris [00:11:26]:
Listener, it’s a really lovely red, but you can kind of see through it, which is you’re saying it’s like when you say it’s like that lighter red.

Charles [00:11:33]:
Lighter than you would typically expect from a Cab Sauvignon.

Andrea Morris [00:11:36]:
But still a beautiful nose, which it’s, like, a little fruity, but not overly.

Charles [00:11:43]:
It is a little fruity. With the Cab Sauvignon, you typically expect on a bigger, bolder Cab Sauvignon, you’d expect some dark cherry, dark chowder, maybe some leather or tobacco. This one’s a little bit lighter. You’re gonna get a, like, maybe some red cherry, redcurrant, raspberry, maybe a little bit sweeter than you might expect from a typical Cab Sauvignon as well.

Andrea Morris [00:12:04]:
I got the cherry, but it’s interesting because everyone people refer to tobacco and leather. I’ve never had that leather or tobacco. I I my palate has never had that leather or tobacco taste.

Charles [00:12:17]:
And everyone has their own palate, their own senses, their own sensibilities. Some people can taste much more subtle, taste than others can, and some people can smell much more subtle taste or or, bouquets than others can. And that’s the great thing that I love about wine. If everybody had the same taste and the same palate, then you’d make one wine that would just appeal to everybody. Right. But with everybody’s preferences and, you know, when it comes to a bouquet or a palette, you know as well as anyone else that when you have a cold, things don’t taste the same. Things don’t smell the same. I really don’t know what you are tasting or smelling when you are drinking the wine.

Charles [00:12:55]:
It may not be the same

Andrea Morris [00:13:02]:
tasting. Absolutely. Like, I was I was saying early and another tasting that if you drink coffee before you go someplace or you have a mint, it completely affects the taste of the wine. Absolutely. But I haven’t had that today. But it’s like, I’ve never had I’ve still in all my years of wine tasting, I’ve never tasted tobacco. But I did smell it on the, on on wine here, but I’ve never actually tasted it. Right.

Andrea Morris [00:13:30]:
And I’ve never had that leather taste. But, again, we all have different palates. Do you think that as we get older that our palates change and we and also this, the nose changes?

Charles [00:13:41]:
I think that as we get older, our palates definitely develop. When it comes to red wines, the palate of a younger drinker is going to go towards light and smooth and perhaps sweet, very easy drinking. An older individual will likely want something that is bigger, bolder, maybe more tannic with perhaps those leather and tobacco notes to them. And I think a lot of it is just that you have, over the ages developed a more, bolder palate. But it is also possible that our taste buds are not as sensitive as we’re older as they are when we’re younger. So something that you might find offensive when you’re younger, you might find enjoyable when you’re older because your taste buds have have developed and changed.

Andrea Morris [00:14:33]:
But sometimes maybe it’s like the more you talk about it, the the the second sip I’ve had of this, I’m like, maybe I can taste leather. Well Maybe it’s the power of suggestion.

Charles [00:14:43]:
That is very that is very true.

Andrea Morris [00:14:45]:
It could be the more you say leather, there’s no leather that is like, I taste it now.

Charles [00:14:49]:
Right. But wine taste is very subjective and suggestive. Yes. You know, if someone tells you you’re going to taste eucalyptus, suddenly you’re looking for eucalyptus, so you’re more likely to find it.

Andrea Morris [00:15:01]:
Which is why I like when people don’t tell me what I should be tasting or what I should be smelling because I want to, like, figure out what it is myself and then go, yes. I got it right. Yeah. Or yes. Yes. This is exactly what that is. Absolutely. But it’s funny because the more we were talking about leather, the more I

Charles [00:15:17]:
actually tasted

Andrea Morris [00:15:18]:
leather in that wine, which is an absolutely beautiful wine. Mhmm. It’s just like it it’s very easy drinking. It’s not like that big ballsy Cab Sauv, but it’s, like, it’s absolutely perfect for this time of year and for like, I just wanna eat pasta and drink that. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Like a meet a nice someone, please, make me a pasta.

Andrea Morris [00:15:43]:
But I will say, listener, the cat that cassava is known for their reds. And when I when I live in this region and when people ask me where to go for reds, I always recommend this winery because your reds are spectacular

Charles [00:15:54]:
And you know as well as anyone else that we had a very good year in 2020 We had a cab sauv and a cab franc that were just outstanding. The cab franc won a gold medal at the Decanter World Wine Awards. The cab sauv won bronze at the Decanter World Wine Awards. But because they were such, you know, great medal winners and in such small supply, we have sold out of them. You have a couple bottles at home, I know.

Andrea Morris [00:16:20]:
Yes.

Charles [00:16:21]:
But, you know, not every year can be the absolute best. 2021, as I said, was a recovery year. So it’s a matter of always aiming to do the best with what you can in any given year. And, some wineries, you know, you will try a wine and in the bag, you’re just like, I I don’t know. It it didn’t quite hit. Here at Casaub, I’ve never had a bad bottle of wine. That’s why I chose to work here. I’ve I’ve been here drinking it for 20 ish years, and I’ve had some that I prefer better than others, some that are definitely bolder than others, but I’ve never had a bad bottle here.

Andrea Morris [00:16:56]:
Yeah. I agree. I’ve I’ve been a wine club member here for several years, and I’m always so absolutely thrilled when I get my wine club shipment. Mhmm. Because it’s always spectacular. So So let’s move on to spectacular.

Charles [00:17:09]:
Let’s move on to some more spectacular.

Andrea Morris [00:17:12]:
Sirrah. Quesirah Sirrah. Quesirah Sirrah. Whatever we drink will be. So I’m Channeling my inner doors stay here.

Charles [00:17:25]:
I’m not sure if you’ve had this one before. I mentioned earlier that we have the 3 blocks of the Syrah, the proprietors, the, Silver Bridge, and the Terrace Vineyard. And we sell the 3 side by side to really highlight the terroir. How the landscape and the sunlight and the drainage impacts the expression of the wine. And our proprietors block up on the sunny south facing hill up by Michael Casaba’s house, it gets really good sunlight, really good drainage, really good airflow. You get a light, easy, approachable Syrah that tends to open up as you are drinking it. Whereas the Terrace Vineyard is blown down in the valley a little bit more shady mineral. It it tends to be a very tight and, contemplative wine.

Charles [00:18:12]:
And I know you’ve had the 2019 versions of the 3, but we’re now pouring the 2020 proprietors block. It’s we don’t really pour this one for the general public yet, but, since you’re here, we have this one open.

Andrea Morris [00:18:25]:
We’re in for a treat today. I find it really interesting how much the terrain affects the taste of wine.

Charles [00:18:34]:
It really does so much so that if you were to come in to cassava on any given day, we have 10 different Syrahs that I can sell you. And they’re all grown within our 17 acres here. Different years, different treatments to them. But, you know, you can’t really say, oh, I love Sauvignon Blanc or I I don’t like, Pinot Noir. Because until you’ve tried them all, you really don’t know. If I can sell you 10 different Syrahs from 17 acres that all taste different, the next winery over, no matter what they’re doing, their Syrahs are going to be different as well. And you really have to get out there and in Niagara, it’s great. We have so many wineries, but getting out there, trying the different wineries, getting their recommendation and suggestions of who’s doing what in this given year.

Charles [00:19:27]:
It really allows you to find and appreciate some very high quality, very good wines that you may not get if you’re just, you know, heading out there on your own and and guessing or going to the LCBO and hoping hoping for the best, which is why podcasts like yours, you know, I know that you’ve been around to a winery or 2 in Niagara, and I’m fairly certain that the wineries that you’re selecting for your podcast are ones that you are already quite sure are making very good quality wines.

Andrea Morris [00:19:57]:
Well, I don’t wanna disappoint my listeners, and I want them to know that if they make the trip to Niagara or if they care enough to, like, look online and to see if they can order your wines from wherever they are, that that they’re not gonna be disappointed.

Charles [00:20:12]:
Right.

Andrea Morris [00:20:12]:
And also, we’re breaking down barriers. Wine is fun, and you don’t have to spend 1,000 of dollars or 100 of dollars on a bottle of wine in order for it to be delightful.

Charles [00:20:23]:
That is correct. Now I always say, you know, wine has a certain snob factor to it. Yes. And we try to take that out of winery. I’m sure most wineries do.

Andrea Morris [00:20:33]:
I’ve been to a few that like to infuse the snob factor.

Charles [00:20:36]:
There are some. But for the most part, when someone comes into cassava, especially someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience with wine, I am trying to do everything I can to put them at ease to, I’m not gonna tell them, oh, this wine is better than than the other one. I always say the best wine is the one that you like. Exactly. And if you like a $25 bottle over a $60 bottle, then that’s the wine that’s right for you. And I will ask them what they do or they don’t like about it, but I’m not looking for them to be experts. I’m not looking for them to have any vocabulary. They can say, well, I don’t like it because it feels too dry or it feels too bitter.

Charles [00:21:16]:
And I’ll try to help them understand what exactly it is about that wine that they may or may not enjoy and try to direct them to a different wine that they might winery that they might enjoy. Yeah. Because I I think that for the most part, when you go to the smaller wineries in Niagara, they’re looking to provide the customer with a great experience. And if that means that the wines at a certain winery don’t hit your palate, most wineries are able to make recommendations to other wineries that might hit your palate better.

Andrea Morris [00:21:51]:
And it’s one of the wonderful things about the Niagara wine region is that all the wineries are so supportive of each other.

Charles [00:21:58]:
For the most part, we really are. Yes.

Andrea Morris [00:21:59]:
Yeah. And that you and you yourself have recommended many wineries to me that I have thoroughly enjoyed. Right. And I think that that’s the wonderful thing. It’s that sense of camaraderie. Absolutely. Not a competitiveness, but it’s a camaraderie. Like, if we all like each other, we all help each other, and that’s why I would love my listeners to understand that and to know that Niagara wines are on par with any wines around the world.

Charles [00:22:27]:
They really are. Speaking of

Andrea Morris [00:22:29]:
which, I’m going to try this tomorrow

Charles [00:22:30]:
right now. Sure. No. And, you know, I’ll just follow-up on that. I mean, you can go to, in Niagara, you’re going to find that most of the good quality wines, they’re not inexpensive, but you’re looking at, you know, anywhere from 35 to 70, depending on the region you go in Niagara. Some regions are more expensive. If you go to, some of the bigger wineries in Niagara Lake, you might be looking at a 120 to a 150. But if you were to go to Napa Valley and try to find the same quality, you’re looking at $300 a bottle.

Charles [00:23:02]:
And if you go to Bordeaux and try to find a wine of this quality, I can’t even hazard a guess to how much you’re spending. But And that’s in euros. In euros. Yeah. So mortgage your house. Exactly. Yeah. So we have a lot of American guests here who, will buy it up by the case because with an exchange rate, it is such a bargain.

Charles [00:23:25]:
When they’re used to paying a certain price point for California wine and are finding our wines here of equal or better quality at what they consider to be quite inexpensive.

Andrea Morris [00:23:35]:
And I think that the Niagara region is highly underrated because we have absolutely spectacular wines here. Right. And, like, this wine, in particular, the Syrah, I’ve just smelled it. And me saying, oh, I don’t taste I can smell leather. I can actually smell it’s just, like, so deep and rich. And the smell alone is just, like, I just feel like I’m sitting in my dad’s old easy chair. Like, the leather like, the leather rocking chair that he sits in that he would like, you know, like his recliner. Mhmm.

Andrea Morris [00:24:08]:
That’s that’s kind of what it smells like to me. It’s just like that it’s almost kind of inviting, but very but very comfortable.

Charles [00:24:15]:
Right.

Andrea Morris [00:24:19]:
And the taste is very, is very deep and very, like I hit I I don’t taste tobacco in it or I don’t taste leather, but it’s just like I it’s like almost plum ish. But

Charles [00:24:33]:
Well, the tasting notes on the back say black plum, dark cherries, and smoky bacon.

Andrea Morris [00:24:39]:
Oh my god. I’m a winner. I got it right. Because I could definitely taste that black that plum. Right. Like, it’s like but it’s just it’s just a beautiful wine. And it’s interesting because I’ve had different syrahs here, and it’s interesting how much they change terrain to terrain. Like, you could have the same year from a different vineyard, and it chased completely different.

Andrea Morris [00:25:04]:
Absolutely.

Charles [00:25:05]:
Yeah. This is this is beautiful. No. This is the the 2020? 2020 proprietors block.

Andrea Morris [00:25:11]:
So absolutely spectacular. Yeah. As I would expect nothing less from now does the winemaker have a difference in the wine? Oh, for sure.

Charles [00:25:23]:
You know, when it comes to what makes a wine the wine that it is, it all starts in the vineyard. You have to, first of all, have the the high quality grape stock, you know, and the vinifera grapes, which are, you know, predominant in Niagara right now. Most of the wineries in the bench area will have those highest quality vinifera grapes. I already talked about the terroir. The soil properties, the slope properties will have a major impact on the wine. The climate or an upcoming the weather in any given year will have a major impact on the wine. But even with the perfect grapes, the perfect terrain, the perfect climate, it’s then up to the winemaker and the winemaker’s vision to determine, are we making big and bold? Are we making light and delicate? And you can have 2 wineries side by side with the same grapes, the same terrain, the same climate, but very different wines based on the winemaker’s vision and style.

Andrea Morris [00:26:22]:
What’s the difference in that? Is it the oakiness, or is it how much it’s in a barrel, or is it how much, like how would that

Charles [00:26:28]:
Well, I’m glad you mentioned that because I have one more wine to share with you tonight, and it is our 2020 Reserve Servant. Oh, yeah. First one the previous one you had was the 2020 proprietors block. That is, grapes from one specific block of the 3 done in our traditional style, which is to make a easy drinking, approachable table wine that you will basically drink within the next 3 to 5 years. The reserve now there’s no standard definition of what reserve means in Niagara in Canada. But at cassava, we mean it to be the grapes from the best vintage. So the the best year, and then taking the best barrels of wine from that year and, giving them a treatment so that we would expect them to last 12 to 15 years to be sellarable, to be reserve worthy. And the sellerability of a wine comes from the tannins and the antioxidants and the acidity.

Charles [00:27:34]:
The tannins and acidity and the antioxidants all come from the skins. Additional tannins come from the oak barreling. So if you’re making a wine that you want to be, cellarable, you have to leave the skins in contact longer to extract the tannins and the acidity as well as the color from the skins. So usually a reserve quality wine, you’re gonna see it’s gonna be darker, richer, bolder. You can see just in the glass that it’s a bigger, thicker, richer wine.

Andrea Morris [00:28:04]:
Yes. This this is the darkest purple wine ever. Right. It’s like but does the variety of the oak change the flavor of the wine? The variety

Charles [00:28:14]:
of the oak will change the flavor of the wine. With the oak barrels, predominantly, you have American and French oak barrels. The oak themselves are treated with a, a charring or a toasting on the inside. And there’s a gradient of, you know, lightly medium, dark, medium dark toasting. And the toasting will be the predominant factor in, those oaky qualities, those smoky qualities. That comes from the oak barrel. Whereas, you know, if you have a wine that is in a lightly oaked or older barrel, it’s not gonna impart as much of that essence into the wine. So for one like this,

Andrea Morris [00:28:56]:
do you want a newer oak a newer oak barrel?

Charles [00:28:59]:
If you are trying to make a very big bold red, you would probably wanna use a medium to darkly toasted barrel 1st year that will give you the most impact in that wine from the oak. And the oak itself will, you know, it’ll age out after a while. If you use the oak barrel for 3 or 4 years, it will become less potent, less intense, and they’ll have less impact on the wine.

Andrea Morris [00:29:26]:
So at what age do you get rid of

Charles [00:29:28]:
a barrel, like 4 years? Usually, after 4 years, we’re selling off the barrels.

Andrea Morris [00:29:31]:
And then you’re making selling them like, hey, have a table.

Charles [00:29:34]:
We are selling them to to, whoever wants them. The The last time we sold them, they were a $150 to the public and a 120 to our club members. Gotcha. But

Andrea Morris [00:29:47]:
you know what? A barrel has lived its life and deserves to continue to live.

Charles [00:29:51]:
That’s correct.

Andrea Morris [00:29:52]:
So now I am going to tell you that listener, the color of this reserve Syrah is absolutely spectacular. It’s the darkest purple. It’s like the purple chair I have in my house. And the smell, the aroma, the nose, the nose as we say in the wine world

Charles [00:30:11]:
The nose, the bouquet?

Andrea Morris [00:30:12]:
The bouquet. Yes. All the all the snooty snooty terms that you should know Right. For your next wine tasting is lovely. It’s like, I hesitate to say what it is because at first, I smell I thought I smelled like tobacco, but now I think you know, it’s funny. I smell something completely different now, and I can’t I can’t verbalize what it is.

Charles [00:30:38]:
Well, the bouquet notes on the wine talk about,

Andrea Morris [00:30:43]:
I almost wanted to say lavender. Isn’t that weird?

Charles [00:30:46]:
Well, it’s not weird. It’s what you’re smelling.

Andrea Morris [00:30:48]:
Yeah. But it’s kind of like isn’t that weird? I wanted to say lavender, but I don’t smell it. But it just kinda smelled like lavender. Maybe that’s my hand cream.

Charles [00:30:56]:
That could be. The the tasting notes talk about black sorry. Ground coffee, toasty oak, dusty cocoa, and black pepper.

Andrea Morris [00:31:08]:
Well, I initially smelled black pepper, but I just kept like, it might be my hand cream. I kept going back to lavender, but it’s because my my hand is so close to my mouth at the moment. Right. But it’s absolutely stunningly it’s such a smooth line. It’s beautiful.

Charles [00:31:25]:
Yeah. And it has a fuller palette than the previous one. The previous one

Andrea Morris [00:31:29]:
It does.

Charles [00:31:30]:
Plays around on the front of the palette. It’s got a peppery spiciness to it, but you really feel it, you know, between the lips and the teeth. Whereas this one is more fuller palate. It has a lot more going on at the back of the tongue and on the on the roof of the mouth.

Andrea Morris [00:31:44]:
And when you describe that, if you talk about that, it’s like like, if someone’s just listening to this podcast for the first time, how did like, what does that mean? Like, it’s like how do you experience that if you’re talking about it? Because you might just go, like, you taste this. Like, do you, like, do you have to take one sip and then take a second to understand that? Or, like, how does someone who’s new to wine understand what you’re talking about in that?

Charles [00:32:10]:
Right. To, to make it not complicated, there’s the taste of the wine and then there’s the body or the mouthfeel. How thick the wine feels and how much it, sort of moves around in the mouth. And, you know, again, everyone has their own senses and their own descriptors. For me, a lot of time, I will describe a wine as, you know, coming in at the bottom of the palate and then coming up from the back and hitting the top of the palate with an intensity, whereas other wines might move around the side and then land at the back. And I’ve heard other people say, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Andrea Morris [00:32:49]:
Yeah. You know? Exactly. That’s like yeah. And that’s what I’m saying from our listeners. They might not they might be going like, are you from planet wine?

Charles [00:32:55]:
Exactly. So, you know, there’s no there’s no right or wrong. There’s just different ways that different people experience it. So for myself, and that may be more than other people, I experienced the wine with that mouthfeel. What’s it doing in my mouth? And on a lighter wine, it’s like it’s kinda staying in the front. There’s a bit of flavor. When you swallow, it disappears very quickly. Whereas in a fuller bodied wine, you can feel it.

Charles [00:33:21]:
The what it’s doing in the front of the mouth tastes different than what it’s doing on the back of the tongue, or, you know, feels different than when it’s hitting the top of your palate. So mouthfeel might not be something that is easy to describe, but you just you feel there’s more happening and and more interesting characteristics to talk about. When I first started doing wine tastings, people explained to

Andrea Morris [00:33:45]:
me, you have to take the second sip. Yes. Like, the first sip is your introduction, and the second sip is when the wine actually explains to you what it is.

Charles [00:33:53]:
Right. The first sip, you’re really preparing your palate for that wine. You’re letting a little bit of oxygen in with that, letting your mouth know what to expect. And then that second palate, you’re more or the second taste, you’re more primed to really receive it and discover it a little bit more.

Andrea Morris [00:34:10]:
Now when I’ve been here and we’ve tasted wine from the cask

Charles [00:34:14]:
Yes.

Andrea Morris [00:34:15]:
What how is that different than tasting wine that’s been bottled?

Charles [00:34:19]:
Well, the wine that you’ve tasted in the cask is wine that is, not ready for bottling yet, which means it’s really not finished. It’s, you know, 6 months down the road, it will be a finished wine ready for bottling. So it will still have some development to do in the casket. We’ll still have some aging, some mellowing. It will probably, receive a little bit more tannins, a little bit more of the oaky qualities. The oak allows a little bit of oxygen in, which will allow the flavors to start to blend together and, and smoothen out. So when you’re trying something right from the cask, it’s a really interesting and exciting little endeavor because you’re trying something that’s sort of just in its infancy.

Andrea Morris [00:35:03]:
It’s like a chemistry experiment.

Charles [00:35:05]:
It is a it’s exactly a chemistry experiment. And, you know, wine changes every day. When you buy a bottle of wine, if you open it up 5 years from now, it’s gonna be a different wine. If you even open it 2 weeks from now, it’s going to change and develop and grow. So pre bottling, you’re getting something where, you know, the winemaker is is building up a style, building up a a quality of the wine, and, still has a few more months down the road before it’s gonna be finished.

Andrea Morris [00:35:34]:
Now when they initially make the wine, do they have that vision in in in hand as to what it will be down the road?

Charles [00:35:41]:
You have to start with a vision, but you have to be flexible in changing the vision in whichever direction the wine forces you to change.

Andrea Morris [00:35:49]:
Because the wine’s like dog. It’s like, no. I wanna go that way. No. I wanna go that way. No. I wanna go that. No.

Andrea Morris [00:35:54]:
I don’t wanna go that way in my walk. I wanna go this way. That

Charles [00:35:56]:
is exactly right.

Andrea Morris [00:35:58]:
So, listener, if you can appreciate wine to be like a dog, then you will appreciate wine.

Charles [00:36:04]:
No. I didn’t I didn’t say that.

Andrea Morris [00:36:06]:
Well, I’m saying it because it’s like I know what my dog is like when we go for walks. He’s like, I wanna go that way. I wanna go that way. I wanna go that way. And it’s like that’s how it seems that wine would be. It definitely is. I would like to go like, the wine is like, no. No.

Andrea Morris [00:36:17]:
That’s the direction I want. Mhmm. And it’s interesting because I’ve tasted the barrel wine here and then tasted it a month later, and it’s tasted completely different.

Charles [00:36:27]:
Exactly. The which one? The rose, the 2023 rose, we were first trying at Christmas time, and it was very predominant in banana. But the winemaker assured me that whatever the compound was that tastes like banana, it would evolve more into strawberry by the time it was bottled.

Andrea Morris [00:36:46]:
Really?

Charles [00:36:46]:
And sure enough, we just bottled it last week, and it has a very strong strawberry essence to it.

Andrea Morris [00:36:51]:
That’s interesting. Mhmm. But I think do you have to be somewhat of a chemist to be a winemaker?

Charles [00:36:56]:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You really have to know how the wine is gonna develop and how to encourage it in that certain direction.

Andrea Morris [00:37:03]:
And also have some knowledge of agriculture, I would imagine, to know, like, what had happened to the soil at these apparent times and Absolutely. Wow. Wine making sounds like fun.

Charles [00:37:14]:
No. I’m not a lawyer, but

Andrea Morris [00:37:15]:
I know you’re not.

Charles [00:37:16]:
I’m gonna say this from a, you know, from the view of someone who has just paid attention and, asked around and, you know, tried to put the pieces together.

Andrea Morris [00:37:26]:
But when you isn’t it funny though when you listen if you talked, like, how you are now, like, when 20 years ago, you’re like do you envision yourself going like, oh my god. I didn’t know I could be speaking in these terms.

Charles [00:37:38]:
Absolutely not. No.

Andrea Morris [00:37:39]:
So, see, listener, you don’t have to be intimidated. We all start from baby steps, and we all grow, and then we appreciate wine even more. But you know what? There’s nothing there’s no wrong taste. There’s no right taste. It’s all about your own personal palate. Your

Charles [00:37:55]:
own personal palate. Absolutely.

Andrea Morris [00:37:56]:
Yeah. And I honestly, you can find your personal palate at cassava. No problem.

Charles [00:38:01]:
I would like to hope so.

Andrea Morris [00:38:02]:
I think so because you have so many varieties of wine, and you have we’ve we’ve touched predominantly on reds, but and and the bubbly and the chard We don’t do the rose.

Charles [00:38:13]:
We did the pinot gris.

Andrea Morris [00:38:13]:
We did the pinot gris, but we didn’t do the rose. We

Charles [00:38:15]:
did not do the rose.

Andrea Morris [00:38:16]:
They have a spectacular rose here. And but it’s a beautiful it’s a beautiful location. You can sit outside. You can stay indoors, and their wines are so inviting and so lovely. And all price points.

Charles [00:38:29]:
All price points. Yes.

Andrea Morris [00:38:30]:
Yes. And I I’m like, I’m a little biased because I’m a wine club member here, but I would say it’s well worth the visit to this region to come and see cassava.

Charles [00:38:39]:
Well, thank you, Andrea.

Andrea Morris [00:38:40]:
Well, I’d like to say thank you, charles and listener. I hope that you’ve enjoyed our podcast today and our trip to cassava. And so if you visit the show notes, you’ll get the website, you’ll see photos, and you’ll learn about the wines that we’ve tasted today. So be sure to like and follow spill the wine. And, also, if you have any suggestions or have any further questions about the wines that we’ve been tasting, you can email us at podcastspillthewine@gmail.com. That’s podcastspillthewine@gmail.com. Now let’s raise a glass. Let’s say cheers, and we’ll see you next time.